IN CONVERSATION WITH JOHN WATERS
John Waters is a man who needs no introduction. An absolute legend, the Pope of Trash, and one of our personal heroes. I had the honor of jumping on the phone with John to talk about the 35th anniversary of Cry-Baby, costume designer Van Smith, his favorite store in the world, being accepted by the fashion world, Rei Kawakubo, and so much more. John would love if you'd comment your pick for worst dressed director (lol) as he really wants to know what you say. I'll be sharing the results with him!
On Saturday October 18, John Waters, Ricki Lake, and Mink Stole will be in LA for a special screening of Cry-Baby with a conversation about the film afterwards. Get your tickets here!
Hagop Kourounian: Hello, hey John.
John Waters: Hello! How are you?
Hagop Kourounian: I'm great, how are you?
John Waters: Great.
Hagop Kourounian: I wanted to give you a quick little background on what I do. My page is called Director Fits and we basically talk about–
John Waters: I know what it is. Ian sent me this stuff, so I know.
Hagop Kourounian: Okay, amazing. Well, let’s get right into it. Congratulations on 35 years of Cry-Baby. It's an amazing film.
John Waters: Thank you!
Hagop Kourounian: I’d love to start off by talking about Van Smith's rockabilly costuming in the film. The 1950’s Elvis-era was the peak for that subculture… But with the popularity of bands like the Stray Cats, etc. about 20-30 years later, rockabilly dress had sort of a revival in the fashion cycle around the time Cry-Baby was made. What inspired you to tell a story in this kind of aesthetic cultural moment in America?
John Waters: Well, we weren’t influenced by that. I always loved rockabilly. When I was in the ‘60s, I used to look like a hippie pimp. I’d wear rockabilly padded guitar t-shirts with shrunken heads on it and all that kind of stuff. So it never went out of fashion with us. We always loved it because Elvis was my favorite and all that rockabilly music was such a huge influence. It was in all my early films, that kind of music. So it wasn't influenced by that, by then we were over it. At least a little bit. But Van Smith did all the costumes for my movies. Last year, the Costume Design Guild in LA, which this major organization, honored him. It was really a moving event because he's no longer with us. But it was really great to see how he was appreciated by the Hollywood establishment of costume designers. So yes, that kind of fashion we knew and the guys we hung around with dressed like that for real. Not like Cry-Baby, I mean. Van obviously did it from all the fashions of the time and everything. Rockabilly culture didn't have to get revived, we always liked it.
Hagop Kourounian: I loved your speech at the Costume Design Guild Awards for Van, I read a transcript of it, it was very touching.
John Waters: Oh, good. It was very moving to me because Van really did just all my movies. He did some of The Wire, too. But he was kind of quite a guy. He would lose all the petty cash from the production, stuff like that. But the producers loved his work so much that nobody ever could really get mad at him.
Hagop Kourounian: What was it like on set while making Cry Baby? I mean, the cast is unbelievable. So many crazy names like Johnny Depp, Iggy Pop, Patricia Hearst, Willem Dafoe, etc.
John Waters: Let's just say that when we walked in a restaurant, the people ran. Johnny Depp at the time was the height of teen idolness, which he hated. All the girls, the screaming girls like Justin Bieber would be trying to buy the sewage from his trailer. I would always say, “sell it, we'll make some money.” But he wouldn't, he'd laugh. But I would say “get a cold!” We can have all sorts of sewage, your snot, your earwax, everything.
Hagop Kourounian: More production budget never hurts!
John Waters: Yeah, make a dollar holler as they say in Baltimore.
Hagop Kourounian: That's so funny. You have this event coming up in LA for the 35th anniversary of Cry-Baby with Ricki Lake and Mink Stole. I'm curious how you’re gonna feel about reminiscing about the film with Ricki and Mink 35 years after its release.
John Waters: It won't be hard because Ricki and Mink I'm still very close friends with. I see them all the time and stuff. And we've been through so much together since then that I think we look back with a certain – the movie was not a success when it came out. Right. And so it's so bizarre to see how much it is loved by all ages of people today. It's kind of nice, you know. But weird things have happened. Some girl told me that her mother caught her saving her own tears and drinking them and sent her to a psychiatrist. I guess that's true. If I caught my child drinking her own tears, I'd be concerned too. But another one, a woman came up to me and said, “I used to hate you.” And I said, “why?” She said “I was the baby that Ricki Lake gave birth to in the back of the car. My parents didn't ask me if I wanted to be in that movie.” But then said she forgave me because she liked my spoken word show. You never know people's memories or which people are going to come out of the past. I just look at that movie and think, how did we ever make that movie? How did we ever get through it? It rained almost every day. I just remember all the things that went wrong when we were making it.
Hagop Kourounian: It's an amazing film. My fiancée and I always sing the songs together. She showed me the film. It's awesome how the narrative changes over time.
John Waters: Well, James Intveld, who was the real Cry-Baby of L.A., he was the voice, and I think he did an amazing job. Now, Johnny can sing, too, but at the time, I guess the studio was nervous. So we also got Rachel Sweet, who also did the vocals in Hairspray, she sang the title song. So both those were great additions also. Amy Locane just came to the John Waters Camp. She was a counselor very recently after she had been through some really bad stuff. So it was great to kind of welcome her back. My audience is forgiving and welcoming.
Hagop Kourounian: Stylistically speaking, which aesthetic do you resonate with more? The squares or the drapes? I feel like I may know the answer, but...
John Waters: Oh my God… That's easy. I was raised to be a square and a square was not a bad thing to be called that. If you are in Baltimore and you ask any person over 60 years old, were you a draper or square? They don't say, what do you mean? Every person answers. A square meant preppy and a drape meant blue collar. So, um, in my neighborhood everyone was preppy, which was called square. To call someone a square was not a put down. It was a class issue, really.
Hagop Kourounian: I read that you kind of changed the connotations associated with drapes for the film. They sounded like they were a bit more racist in real life than they were in your film.
John Waters: Well, not all drapes were, but let's just say blue collar Southern men were not exactly known for being freedom fighters. So in the movie, I did put the Conks, which was the name of the black gang, which certainly would have never been truthfully mixing with everybody at that time. So I tried to address that by giving it a little happier reality than it was really at the time.
Hagop Kourounian: You're the director, you get to create the world as you wish. Do you remember what you wore while making Cry-Baby?
John Waters: No, there’s different pictures from that time. I always got dressed. I didn't ever look... I always wore something. I always think Alfred Hitchcock taught me that. You should still come to the set dressed. Not up, but dressed certainly for a long day's work. I always wore a sport coat. I don't remember what I wore, but I'm sure there's plenty of pictures of it. I don't think I wore anything to be noticed for what I was wearing, completely. I certainly wore a nice jacket and a shirt and a pair of jeans or a pair of pants. I mean, I don't remember, but I didn't dress that much differently than I do today.
Hagop Kourounian: I have seen some photos, but I was just curious if you remembered anything specific. Do you typically wear high fashion while making movies?
John Waters: What do you call high fashion? I love Comme des Garçons but people think I found it in a thrift shop. I pay a lot of money to look like I found it for a nickel. I can't find it for a nickel anymore. I used to when I was young, I got everything for a nickel and it was great. I can't find that stuff anymore. So now I have to pay a lot of money to make it look like it costs a nickel.
Hagop Kourounian: Yeah, Rei Kawakubo is great at that.
John Waters: But would I say that I was into Comme des Garçons then? Yeah, probably. I don't remember, but certainly I always had a look. Even if it was ridiculous, I always had a look.
Hagop Kourounian: Speaking of Comme des Garçons, I admire your love for the brand so much and I've heard you referred to the founder, Rei, as a fashion dictator and not a designer. I'm curious if you could expand on that.
John Waters: I mean she is a dictator… You don't question her, you know? I mean you don't question her opinions. She invented everything you see now, clothes in the GAP are distressed. That's because of Rei Kawakubo. In the department stores in the ‘50s it used to be called seconds. They were things where the button was in the wrong place or had a hole in it. Now it's high fashion. I bought a coat there just this week that looks like she just took three coats and just cut them up and sewed them together badly.
Hagop Kourounian: Wow.
John Waters: I think that she’s a great designer and she did ask me to accept her lifetime achievement award at the CFDA awards, which I was really honored to do. I did model once, I was the first on the runway at her big couture show in Paris. Talk about nerve wracking…
Hagop Kourounian: Yeah, I've seen the videos of that. You did a great job!
John Waters: Uh Well, I don’t know about that. I felt like Don Knotts meets Mahogany.
Hagop Kourounian: Did you buy the CDG jacket in New York?
John Waters: Yes, but I go to MAC, it’s my favorite store. I like Comme des Garçons too and in New York I go there all the time, but MAC in San Francisco is where I buy a lot of my clothes. They send them to me and we do fittings at home, same with Comme des Garçons.
Hagop Kourounian: Oh, wow, I got to look that up. I haven't heard of them before.
John Waters: It's in the Hayes Valley in San Francisco. It's a very very good small men's and women's boutique that has the best stuff. I like everything they have.
Hagop Kourounian: Lately you’ve been the muse of Anthony Vaccarello for Saint Laurent, modeling for Calvin Klein and Nike, and also hosting and accepting awards on behalf of Rei Kawakubo at the CFDA Awards. That's truly amazing…
John Waters: I agree with you. It is astounding that any of this has happened. Why do you think I wear crazy clothes? I participate in that world and people notice and then they hire you. You have to participate in worlds you want to be in. If you want to be a filmmaker, go see every movie, even the bad ones. Figure out what went wrong. If you want to be in an art gallery, go to all art galleries. Figure out the one that might have you the best. Learn about it. You have to heavily participate. So fashion...I always did, even when it cost the nickel, when it was the opposite, you would buy the things that no one else would wear. I always did that. I always had fun with fashion. That's why I never get dressed on Halloween, ever. If I had to go in costume, I'd kill myself. Because my father, every time I left the house, always used to say, it's not Halloween, you know. But it was… every night was Halloween if you’re into fashion. But at the same time I would never buy things that would have labels that show. I never wear a label. Even if Comme des Garçons has a physical label I won’t buy it. I have faith in my own taste, I don’t need someone else to let the public know I spent money on it. You try to hide that you have money, not show it. Especially in fashion. But, at the same time, I do 50 shows a year on the road, they expect an outfit. You can't deduct your clothes. It's the one thing that every accountant always tells me, the one red herring with the IRS is deducting clothes. Because you cannot deduct any clothes, even if you wear them on stage, if it has a pocket in it or you can walk outside. And I always say the argument, I'd like to see an IRS agent wear this Comme des Garçons suit I have. It doesn't seem fair to me.
Hagop Kourounian: We gotta get you in the atelier for some of these brands. Would you ever make a collection with some of these brands if they had you?
John Waters: Sure, of course. The main ad I want and never get is the Maybelline ad. I've been trying to get it forever, I think I'd be perfect. The problem is the audience is more mid-America, I think, you know? But no eyebrow pencil works as well as the Maybelline Velvet Black.
Hagop Kourounian: When I dress up as you for Halloween this year, I'll definitely buy one of those.
John Waters: No, no, no, never on Halloween, I stay home wearing normcore. The only time of the year I wear normcore is on Halloween at home. I like the GAP. They have good t-shirts, they have good boxer shorts. There are two cuts. I don't like some of them. Now Zach Posen is running it. I think it's good!
Hagop Kourounian: I agree. I think Zach has been doing a great job. I've liked a lot of the stuff that's come out from his time there. I'm curious, aside from yourself, which director's personal style do you admire the most? Doesn't have to be just one, but I'm just curious which directors you think are well dressed.
John Waters: Well, I think Pasolini always had a communist chic look. I think Alfred Hitchcock invented, you know, a uniform. David Lynch with the button up shirt, I wear buttoned up too now. Off the top of my head, that's who I would say.
Hagop Kourounian: Those are great answers. You could argue Alfred invented the look of the director per se.
John Waters: He invented the director being a celebrity in any way or a personality or mark. He invented branding in a way as a director.
Hagop Kourounian: Especially the way he appeared in his films.
John Waters: He always did it right in the beginning so people wouldn't be looking for him and not paying attention to the plot. I was only in one of my movies. I hated being in my own movie. I don’t mind being in other people's movies, but I don't like being in my own where I can't be directing and then have to go to hair and makeup.
Hagop Kourounian: My personal favorite appearance of yours is in Jackass.
John Waters: Well, Jackass is the closest film to Pink Flamingos than anybody's ever done.
Hagop Kourounian: I agree. I rewatched Pink Flamingos recently and it hit me so hard how you did it way before them but they kind of took it and made a contemporary version of it.
John Waters: No, they made it great. I saw a sold out audience of blue collar teenagers with their blue collar fathers watching people in Jackass stuff toys up their ass and liking it. I said to Johnny, how did you ever do that? That's why I put him in my movies. I think he's very much a kindred spirit and I'm very much a fan.
Hagop Kourounian: He's the best. One of my one of my heroes along with you. When I went to see Pink Flamingos in LA a couple of months ago, I saw Sean Baker and his wife in the audience.
John Waters: I heard it was packed! I'm friends with Sean and we had just had dinner with him a few nights before. I didn't know he went but thank you for telling me. He didn’t tell me.
Hagop Kourounian: He was probably too humble to tell you but that's a little inside info from me.
John Waters: I wanna ask you, who’s the worst dressed director?
Hagop Kourounian: Oh my God. Wait, I love this question a lot. Nobody’s ever asked that before.
John Waters: I'm going to leave that with you and then you tell me later who people are saying because I can never say who because then I'll meet the person and sit next to them.
Hagop Kourounian: You know what? When I put this conversation up online, I'll end it with this and I'll have people comment their picks.
John Waters: Let me know the results.
Hagop Kourounian I will. All right. Thank you, John!
John Waters: Bye!